“Nothing comes from Nothing”, this is a statement many Christians make to prove that God exists. C) Therefore A1 and A2 are together and there is no B, therefore no N. So now we have established that something can come from nothing. Krauss has stated that “Science is only truly consistent with an atheistic worldview…” I’m sure Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Johannes Kepler, Joseph Lister, James Young Simpson, Samuel F.B. Pushkin October 19, 2002, 12:36pm #1. My father who is a mechanical engineer seems to think that something cannot come from nothing but I think that he is wrong because my father evidently never heard of virtual particles and quantum field theory. God did design the material (and everything else) that makes up snowflakes and the process by which they form. It is a theistic answer to the question of how the universe comes to exist. It is associated with ancient Greek cosmology, such as is presented not just in the works of Homer and Hesiod, but also in virtually every internal system: there is no break in-between a world that did not exist and one that did, since it could not be created ex nihilo in the first place. It explains that we can almost always get something from nothing, even if the religious community claim only a deity can make something from nothing they cannot or will be unwilling to define what nothing is. Consider this bit of irrationality: In fact, many laypeople as well as scientists revel in our ability to explain how snowflakes and rainbows can spontaneously appear, based on simple, elegant laws of physics. Any answer that solves this problem for god can probably also just be used to explain the universe itself instead. Between atoms is a void of nothing. There has to be something or someone who created this and us. No, only God, and my God at that. Young Earth Creationists). But there is a more interesting and complicated problem, which sheds light on further issues with the concept of nothing, but to get there we need to take a trip back in time to the Presocratics and the dawn of Natural Science. Posted by: mjswift. If 'something' can come from nothing, then you would have to accept the fact that there are actually 2 states of nothing, one that supports the creation of 'something' and another that doesn't. Can something come from nothing? While the question seemed all-important and pertinent to the ancients, what we now know about the nature of the universe renders it obsolete. Results are only viewable after voting. I stand on the shoulders of Maxwell.’”, Maxwell’s work in the field of mathematical physics led to the invention of television, mobile phones, microwaves, and nuclear energy. Only God can create something from Nothing in their minds. And if you wish to show that something may in fact come from this nothing, you can simply indicate that if there is nothing, then there is nothing to prevent something from coming into existence, and if you want to talk about the idea of nothing being nonsensical (even though it still is logically possible) you can simply turn to the ancient works of old, where they showed that proposing nothing within the scope of things which exist becomes entirely problematic, and then you can … Creation ex nihilo - without God (1997) (Updated 2011) Mark I. Vuletic . The universe came from nothing. Or to put it more colloquially: in order to get from one point to another, first you must go halfway. However, if they are touching, then there is no space between them and therefore no space for this void/nothing, therefore there is no void. Ok, where did God come from? Plants grew, adapted, and expanded just like humans do on earth. The creation of such particles is therefore never “out of nothing”—it is out of a preexisting space that is filled with energy. The foundational points we can establish thus far are the following: 1. Can virtual particles come from nothing? In the end, this would further prove the views of Parmenides and Zeno, that movement is impossible, since if there is an infinite number of atoms between point 1 and 2, then you could never traverse them, because you could infinitely bisect the number of atoms that separate 1 from 2. The Paradox of Bisection is a well-known issue that anyone taking an introductory algebra course has probably run across, but for those who don’t know, here is how it goes: P1) In order to go from point A to point B, one must first go the halfway point AB, P2) In order to go from point AB to point B, one must go to the halfway point ABB, P3) In order to go from point ABB to point B, one must go to halfway point ABBB. And if some things can appear out of nothing then why can't the universe or God for that matter had come from nothing? And this problem goes on infinitely. Can Something Come From Nothing? The Atheist Experience #750, 2/26/2011. A = Atom(s) used with numbers to differentiate, P2) If B = N then NE is between A1 and A2, P3) If NE is between A1 and A2 then A1 and A2 cannot be separated as there is no E to separate them. It’s not an understatement to say that the discovery has changed the playing field of modern cosmology. If it were, it would cease to be nothing and become something. “Something Good” from The Sound of Music (1965). To speak of creation Ex Nihilo does not mean that we have a "change" in substance from nothing to something. Well it is nothing at all, because everything that has existence is made of atoms, so the void is something non-existent. Am I being ignorant here or can something come from nothing? When this question is asked it is usually in regard to the origin of our universe. It can’t account for anything since anything is something and something does not appear spontaneously from nothing. Against the claim, they often cite what are variously known as quantum vacuum fluctuations or virtual particles. When scientists say that the universe can simply come out of nothing without any divine intervention, they think of the universe in terms of its energy content only. The idea isn't a rule, but a description. In order for there to be something between two atoms, something must exist. Can Something Come From Nothing? ((“Something Good” from The Sound of Music (1965). Special pleading at its best. What does this mean? Something can’t come from nothing. You can't have division without a cell. If nothing comes from nothing then even God had to have something to start with! So I will first try and portray it with a Proof (think Geometry) and then write out for those who hated high school logic puzzles. There simply never has been nothing. The beginning and end links to the end and beginning. It can't account for anything since anything is something and something does not appear spontaneously from nothing. Then we could go back in time (because we’re super smart and can do that) and create the universe. He has been described as the father of modern physics. It is impossible to get from one point to another, because the distance can be infinitely divided in half, meaning any distance between two points is infinite. As argued by scholars such as Philip Davis and Reuben Hersh, mathematics exists independent of physical reality. I am sorry to say that the Eleatic School has the far more convincing argument in this context. Very Probably: Five Rational Ways to Think about the Question of a God], it takes the existence of some kind of a god to make the mathematical underpinnings of the universe comprehensible. Nothing comes from nothing, Nothing ever could. What is the void? Another thing my father believes is that mathematics doesnt really exist in … Dr. Krauss has not explained how the water came into existence to make the snowflake or the informational structure that constitutes the substance we call water to explain how it always reacts the same way to temperature variations and predictable weather conditions. In the end, the curse that Zeno and Parmenides plagued us with remains: motion is impossible, because between any two points there are an infinite number of atoms (thank goodness for Limitations and Calculus). 0. With science, a cell divides from another cell. A vacuum is a balanced combination of matter and antimatter, or particles and antiparticles. Can it? After all, they ask, “How can something come from nothing?” One such religious notion is the story of creation: once upon a time there was nothing, and then, miraculously, there was something. But Carrier replied to my point with this statement: Oh yes, "out of nothing, nothing comes" is another one. Logic, real logic, alone cannot tell us whether something can come from nothing or not, just like it couldn't tell us if the orbits of the planets are perfect spheres or if the sun orbits the earth. Therefore between all atoms are atoms, and between those atoms are atoms and this goes on infinitely. Edited June 9, 2011 by disappointedyoungman The something from nothing hypothesis is illogical, unscientific, and faith-based. ((Krauss, A Universe from Nothing, xiii.)). If you can't get something from nothing, then why do you think you can go on to argue the next step? It is the be all and end all of existence. Q: “How can something come from nothing?” …Let’s see! Where did that first cell come from? have gone so far to say that the cosmos—including us—“is nothing but mathematics.” ((Max Tegmark, “The Great Math Mystery,” NOVA.)) And to get from the halfway point to the destination you must go half way. "Nothing" is not a type alternate reality. You want to let go of your past and start on a new journey, but there is nothing for you to start off with. Any answer that solves this problem for god can probably also just … Well nothing, because nothing cannot stop anything because it is… nothing. True, there certainly is no evidence that something can come from nothing, so we must either appeal to some logical argument, or we must appeal to some faith-claim or revelatory insight. ((Krauss, A Universe from Nothing, xiii.)). Believe it or not there are some atheists who actually think nothing can do something. Like a potter who needs his tools and clay, you can’t create something if there is nothing. Depends on how you define "nothing". It is quite possible that this statement is false, but it also can be true, and we are not able to … He must steal that energy from the theistic power plant that he ridicules, misrepresents, and claims it doesn’t exist. The first version of this article, which I wrote all the way back in 1997, merely compiled a list of quotes from physicists affirming that something can indeed come from nothing through entirely natural processes, and that the entire universe might be one such thing. Imagination allows that to be possible. Given the First Law of Thermodynamics: that you can't get something from nothing. Only God can create something from Nothing in their minds. However, most physicists disagree. 2. Together with various other more technical properties, this led Tryon to suggest that the universe was created from nothing or, more precisely, what physicists call the vacuum state. Another point that can be brought up is that if one wishes to state as fact that “Something cannot come from nothing,” they must actually prove this to be the case, the Burden of Proof lies on the one making the claim. Old King Lear has decided to retire and divide his kingdom among his three daughters. The issue as you can see is that, in the end, the concept of nothing seems to be self-defeating in these contexts. “Something can’t come from nothing, so their must be a God” (cosmological, or First Cause, argument) is not only a non sequitur when defending ones religious claims, it is also not a very good argument on its own merit. For example, if we were to put existence and nonexistence in complementary sets, linguistically we treat them as both existing. How does a materialist like Krauss account for non-physical entities like mathematics and physics in a cosmos that seemingly came into existence out of nothing and continues to operate in terms of fixed and predictable laws? Concluding this, you can rest assured that even if you accept a definition of nothing as being “the absence of everything,” there is still no reason that something cannot come from nothing, and so it is on the shoulders of the YEC to state that something cannot come from nothing. It’s a catch-22. Believe it or not there are some atheists who actually think nothing can do something. A vacuum might seem like empty space, but scientists have discovered a new way to seemingly get something from that nothingness, such as light. Eric from Mesa Arizona calls in to challenge Matt to a debate. What is there to stop something from popping into existence? Otherwise its an endless conundrum of what came first, the chicken or the egg. I hope you enjoyed the (very long) collaboration today. Can something come from nothing? Does this mean that love, compassion, morality, and a whole host of human emotions are nothing but mathematics? The foundational points we can establish thus far are the following: 1. Virtual particles are often cited as evidence that things can come into existence from nothing, since they pop into existence out of the quantum vacuum. BUT I like to point out, IF nothing comes from nothing where did God get the material he needed to create things? First, there is the issue that they must prove that something cannot come from nothing. Atomists (like Democritus) believed that motion was possible. An idea can come from nothing. One cannot get a something from a nothing. Yet no one but the most ardent fundamentalists would suggest that that each and every such object is lovingly and painstakingly and, most importantly, purposely created by a divine intelligence. Nothing can come of nothing. This is the Reification fallacy, which I fell prey to while formulating my positions on this, in fact. Second, they have to distinguish if they mean Scientific Nothing (which is still very much something, read Lawrence Krauss if you don’t believe me), or Philosophical Nothing (the absence of existence). … One of the most fundamental questions of all time nicely dealt with by the guys on the Atheist Experience. But is that the only possibility? ((“Something Good” from The Sound of Music (1965). It is a theistic answer to the question of how the universe comes to exist. Although I suppose it could be argued that even ideas that are radically different and 'imaginative' are based off something else, in which case it would be 'no'. And if we can say that the universe can come from nothing, then we have solved one of the oldest philosophical problems there is. But here is where it gets really interesting, when the debate comes forth. henry higgins says: August 1, 2019 at 11:02 am. The Universe Created Itself. ((Lawrence M. Krauss, A Universe from Nothing: Why There is Something Rather Than Nothing (New York: Free Press, 2012), xiii.)). And to go from that next halfway point to the destination you must again go half way. Like Reply Challenge. In 1960 the Princeton physicist—and subsequent Nobel Prize winner—Eugene Wigner raised a fundamental question: Why did the natural world always—so far as we know—obey laws of mathematics? Yes No Multiple votes are allowed. And if you wish to show that something may in fact come from this nothing, you can simply indicate that if there is nothing, then there is nothing to prevent something from coming into existence, and if you want to talk about the idea of nothing being nonsensical (even though it still is logically possible) you can simply turn to the ancient works of old, where they showed that proposing nothing within the scope of things which exist becomes entirely problematic, and then you can go from there. I'm skipping some crucial steps here, but that is the gist of it. Page 2 of 2 < Prev 1 2. Someone realised apparantly that the universe could theoretically have come from nothing. Otherwise its an endless conundrum of what came first, the chicken or the egg. What if mankind developed for a million years and became so smart that we would essentially be Gods. Great Debates. Lawrence M. Krauss is a renowned cosmologist and professor of the School of Earth and Space Exploration at Arizona State University_._ He is the author of numerous articles and books, including the best-selling _The Physics of Star Trek_ and _A Universe from Nothing_ that includes an Afterword from atheist provocateur Richard Dawkins_._ Krauss is an outspoken atheist, evolutionist, and anti-Christian. The first issue that anyone could bring up in reply would be that, “No one said the Big Bang came from nothing,” and thus the issue of nothing would be entirely avoided to a degree (though the question of the first cause still exists). Nothing comes from nothing,Nothing ever could. BUT I like to point out, IF nothing comes from nothing where did God get the material he needed to create things? Big Bang theory does not actually say that the universe came from nothing. Nothing comes from nothing is a philosophical dictum first argued by Parmenides. After all, they cannot be observed and some physicists claim they’re just useful computational tools, not actually existing. I would be shocked if you hadn’t, because it is a favorite in today’s culture (predominant among those who contest scientific realities like the Big Bang Theory, i.e. If virtual particles can come from nothing, does that mean that something can actually come from nothing? And ironically, the laws of physics actually have been proven to exist now, whereas no God ever has. Every day beautiful and miraculous objects suddenly appear, from snowflakes on a cold winter morning to vibrant rainbows after a late-afternoon summer shower. It's virtual impossibly. It feels about time that age-old question “why is there something rather than nothing?” should notice it’s old age and finally die off. From the Philosophical definition, no, but "nothing" can't be shown to ever have existed, so it's a moot point. From the scientific definition, something MUST come from nothing based on quantum theory. The universe came from nothing. There was a major contest over the concept of the Void. As Wigner wrote, “the enormous usefulness of mathematics in the natural sciences is something bordering on the mysterious and there is no rational explanation for it.”, In other words, as I argue in my book [God? Now at this point, if you are not mathematically minded or familiar with things like Limitations then you are right now rocking back and forth in your chair questioning existence (maybe I’m projecting my own experience after dealing with this). Some evolutionists and non-religionists like physicist Max Tegmark ((Max Tegmark, Our Mathematical Universe: My Quest for the Ultimate Nature of Reality Paperback (New York: Vintage Books, 2015), 5.)) It feels about time that age-old question “why is there something rather than nothing?” should notice it’s old age and finally die off. Well it was essentially what is called the Void. Absolute nothingness cannot produce something given endless time—in fact, there can be no time in absolute nothingness.” ((Abraham Varghese, “The ‘New Atheism’: A Critical Appraisal of Dawkins, Dennett, Wolpert, Harris, and Stenger,” in Anthony Flew with Abraham Varghese, There is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind (New York: HarperCollins, 2007), 170.)). A clue to the answer is in the Bible for those that look for it! All you need is an ultra-high-intensity laser, a … But if something exists, then it must be made of atoms. Many scientists assume that the universe came from nothing, which is an idea that can only be true in light of quantum theory. First, that’s a great Sci-Fi book concept, and I thought of it. When put in a modern context, like discussing the Big Bang and “Something coming from nothing,” YEC’s will have numerous issues trying to use this concept. The Reification fallacy is basically when someone treats a hypothetical as though it were real. – Erin’s Conclusion. No one has ever seen a law of physics. Something is something and nothing is nothing and to think otherwise is nonsense! A vacuum might seem like empty space, but scientists have discovered a new way to seemingly get something from that nothingness, such as light. It is the be all and end all of existence. ((Robert H. Helson, “Existence of God: The Rational Arguments from Mathematics to Human Consciousness,” Independent (May 17, 2017): http://bit.ly/2w1Fcli)). For all anyone can tell, it is possible for something to come from nothing. Now this is where things get more interesting. So there you go, I saved the less mentally damaging for last. Something came from nothing due to god leads directly into the question Where did god come from. For one thing, this discovery has produced remarkable new support for the idea that our universe arose from precisely nothing. P1) If A1 and A2 are separated by B then B = E (see above converse issue if false), P2) If B = E then B =/= N therefore B =/= NE, P3) If B =/= NE, and N = NE then N cannot be between A1 and A2, P4) Therefore between all A there must be E. In English, a similar issue to the problem of Bisection will occur, wherein between every atom is another atom, since all things that exist are made of atoms, and in order for atoms to be separated there must be something that exists which separates them (otherwise they couldn’t be separate).